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	<title>Comments on: Why Can&#8217;t WE&#8230;..Be More Like THEM?</title>
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	<description>Health Care Policy and Reform Insights &#124; NCPA</description>
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		<title>By: David C. Rose</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41674</link>
		<dc:creator>David C. Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41674</guid>
		<description>John:

I am sure you have made this argument before, but a nice and simple point that can help non-economists understand the misleading nature of such “studies” is to point out that the law of diminishing returns is sufficient to guarantee such results. Of course the bang for the buck falls as we spend more or try to do more to live forever. 

Suppose we found an island nation that has never been exposed to the outside world. Suppose all we did was sell them Bactrum. Bactrum is an old anti-biotic that sells even in the U.S. for about $2 a bottle today. It is a wide spectrum antibiotic that solves lots of health care issues very cheaply.

That island nation would have the highest value from their health care system in the world by far. They would spend almost nothing on an anti-biotic that addresses a wide range of diseases. But they would still have unset broken bones, die of heart attacks, etc., etc., etc.

In short, they would be healthier at the margin at very low cost but they would not be “healthy” overall by any stretch of the imagination. To be “healthy,” they’ll have to spend more money. The richer they are the truer it is they will be able to afford lower bang-for-the-buck treatments that nevertheless move them a little closer to immortality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>I am sure you have made this argument before, but a nice and simple point that can help non-economists understand the misleading nature of such “studies” is to point out that the law of diminishing returns is sufficient to guarantee such results. Of course the bang for the buck falls as we spend more or try to do more to live forever. </p>
<p>Suppose we found an island nation that has never been exposed to the outside world. Suppose all we did was sell them Bactrum. Bactrum is an old anti-biotic that sells even in the U.S. for about $2 a bottle today. It is a wide spectrum antibiotic that solves lots of health care issues very cheaply.</p>
<p>That island nation would have the highest value from their health care system in the world by far. They would spend almost nothing on an anti-biotic that addresses a wide range of diseases. But they would still have unset broken bones, die of heart attacks, etc., etc., etc.</p>
<p>In short, they would be healthier at the margin at very low cost but they would not be “healthy” overall by any stretch of the imagination. To be “healthy,” they’ll have to spend more money. The richer they are the truer it is they will be able to afford lower bang-for-the-buck treatments that nevertheless move them a little closer to immortality.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen C.</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41666</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41666</guid>
		<description>David and John: I also have a sense of humor. That means there are at least three of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David and John: I also have a sense of humor. That means there are at least three of us.</p>
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		<title>By: John R. Graham</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41629</link>
		<dc:creator>John R. Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41629</guid>
		<description>In reply to Prof. Henderson (above): The employers to which Dr. Goodman refers, e.g. G.M. or the Business Roundtable members are ERISA-harbored, self-insured employers.  I&#039;m 90% confident that they are not &quot;health insurance&quot; according to the letter of the law, so their obligation to pay for &quot;medically necessary&quot; care is limited (even though they do, as I noted in my recent paper on state-mandated benefits, http://tinyurl.com/cob5r7).  I understand that there is a body of ERISA jurisprudence defining this &quot;ring-fence&quot;.  My (non-lawyer&#039;s) interpretation of this is that if an ERISA plan actually decided to impose Canadian-style waiting lists, there is very little incentive for lawyers to sue it for denying payment for care, as they would a state-regulated insurer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to Prof. Henderson (above): The employers to which Dr. Goodman refers, e.g. G.M. or the Business Roundtable members are ERISA-harbored, self-insured employers.  I&#8217;m 90% confident that they are not &#8220;health insurance&#8221; according to the letter of the law, so their obligation to pay for &#8220;medically necessary&#8221; care is limited (even though they do, as I noted in my recent paper on state-mandated benefits, <a href="http://tinyurl.com/cob5r7" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/cob5r7</a>).  I understand that there is a body of ERISA jurisprudence defining this &#8220;ring-fence&#8221;.  My (non-lawyer&#8217;s) interpretation of this is that if an ERISA plan actually decided to impose Canadian-style waiting lists, there is very little incentive for lawyers to sue it for denying payment for care, as they would a state-regulated insurer.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Thompson</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41628</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41628</guid>
		<description>Hmmm: interesting they&#039;re calling a BMI greater than 25 obese, instead of overweight...what happened to the generally accepted definition of BMI &gt;_30 = obesity?
Also, if we are looking at weight why aren&#039;t we looking at smoking...er, I mean &quot;tobacco addiction&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm: interesting they&#8217;re calling a BMI greater than 25 obese, instead of overweight&#8230;what happened to the generally accepted definition of BMI &gt;_30 = obesity?<br />
Also, if we are looking at weight why aren&#8217;t we looking at smoking&#8230;er, I mean &#8220;tobacco addiction&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Weston</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41624</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Weston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41624</guid>
		<description>Hi John,
 
How did they arrive at these conclusions? What can we do to be able to refute this? I trust we can refute this data.

Thanks for the heads up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>How did they arrive at these conclusions? What can we do to be able to refute this? I trust we can refute this data.</p>
<p>Thanks for the heads up.</p>
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		<title>By: John Goodman</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41622</link>
		<dc:creator>John Goodman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41622</guid>
		<description>Response to David Henderson:

Thanks for the kudos. I&#039;m afraid you are in the minority, however. Health policy is the most humorless field there is. It&#039;s so bad that we have started posting &quot;Satire Alerts&quot; so that people who are jocularly challenged will know not to take the printed word seriously.

On coverage, insurers can, and do, limit what they will pay. But I am proposing that GM could go a step further and ration access to MRI scans, etc., just like Canada does. You would have to have legal agreements to get around possible tort law complications, but with the UAW negotiating for the employees, I would think these agreements would hold up in court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Response to David Henderson:</p>
<p>Thanks for the kudos. I&#8217;m afraid you are in the minority, however. Health policy is the most humorless field there is. It&#8217;s so bad that we have started posting &#8220;Satire Alerts&#8221; so that people who are jocularly challenged will know not to take the printed word seriously.</p>
<p>On coverage, insurers can, and do, limit what they will pay. But I am proposing that GM could go a step further and ration access to MRI scans, etc., just like Canada does. You would have to have legal agreements to get around possible tort law complications, but with the UAW negotiating for the employees, I would think these agreements would hold up in court.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Racer</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41616</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Racer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41616</guid>
		<description>Let’s see. China’s life expectancy is 73 (in a good year) and India at 65 (maybe). And all along we’ve been told that is one of the gold standards for judging a health system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let’s see. China’s life expectancy is 73 (in a good year) and India at 65 (maybe). And all along we’ve been told that is one of the gold standards for judging a health system.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Martin</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41613</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41613</guid>
		<description>Dan Koon, if rationing does take place, that would serve as a great impetus for people to travel to those great health systems like Brazil, China or India where the costs are much lower, patients would not have to wait and still receive great care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan Koon, if rationing does take place, that would serve as a great impetus for people to travel to those great health systems like Brazil, China or India where the costs are much lower, patients would not have to wait and still receive great care.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Boyles/Global Business Forum on Health</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41612</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Boyles/Global Business Forum on Health</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41612</guid>
		<description>Hong Kong is part of China, and some advantages you mention partly apply to the mainland too -- little insurance, patient-centered, less capital-driven. The big flaws are that medical centers on the mainland are few and far between versus HK, the use of EHRs/IT is still tiny, and government provides even less subsidized medical care than in HK. Last week the legislature dealt with some of this going forward, but it will take years to build out. 

We are trying to encourage them to build an IT infrastructure to go along with their 20,000 new community clinics and hundreds of new hospitals budgeted last week, and integrate the levels of care. There is also strong growth in use of savings accounts and what they call &quot;bancassurance,&quot; but probably it will be mostly a large government risk pool paying clinics and doctors on salary. Even the insurers say they can hardly handle a billion new customers, and wraparound products will be required for both individuals and employers similar to HK.

Unlike most other countries, the Chinese want to learn from Americans and Europeans and want to avoid the mistakes we all made. It won&#039;t be easy, but they have the advantage of starting from scratch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hong Kong is part of China, and some advantages you mention partly apply to the mainland too &#8212; little insurance, patient-centered, less capital-driven. The big flaws are that medical centers on the mainland are few and far between versus HK, the use of EHRs/IT is still tiny, and government provides even less subsidized medical care than in HK. Last week the legislature dealt with some of this going forward, but it will take years to build out. </p>
<p>We are trying to encourage them to build an IT infrastructure to go along with their 20,000 new community clinics and hundreds of new hospitals budgeted last week, and integrate the levels of care. There is also strong growth in use of savings accounts and what they call &#8220;bancassurance,&#8221; but probably it will be mostly a large government risk pool paying clinics and doctors on salary. Even the insurers say they can hardly handle a billion new customers, and wraparound products will be required for both individuals and employers similar to HK.</p>
<p>Unlike most other countries, the Chinese want to learn from Americans and Europeans and want to avoid the mistakes we all made. It won&#8217;t be easy, but they have the advantage of starting from scratch.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Koon</title>
		<link>http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-alert-why-cant-webe-more-like-them/comment-page-1/#comment-41610</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Koon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.john-goodman-blog.com/?p=2593#comment-41610</guid>
		<description>And I say to those who want to institure those &quot;progressive, universal (read free for me) systems&quot; in the US, I hope you are prepared for rationing and government bureaucrats deciding your health care future.  Need a knee replacement at 75? Sorry, not cost effective.  Ever wonder why the hospitals in Florida are full in the winter?  Canadians who winter in Flordia and can&#039;t get the care in Canada.  Ever wonder why Manila has 17 HMO&#039;s?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I say to those who want to institure those &#8220;progressive, universal (read free for me) systems&#8221; in the US, I hope you are prepared for rationing and government bureaucrats deciding your health care future.  Need a knee replacement at 75? Sorry, not cost effective.  Ever wonder why the hospitals in Florida are full in the winter?  Canadians who winter in Flordia and can&#8217;t get the care in Canada.  Ever wonder why Manila has 17 HMO&#8217;s?</p>
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